From John Lash's website: Metahistory.org
Kundalini and the Alien Force
The exploration of Gnosticism may be one of the more revealing pursuits of our time, and it is certainly one of the more difficult. Since Gnostics were suppressed in the 4th Century, disinformation about them has run amok. There is no clear and consistent presentation of Gnostic views, either in the slim surviving materials or in modern scholarship. To add to the confusion, Gnostics were initiates in the Mystery schools, and initiates were bound by a vow of silence about many things they experienced — although not, fortunately, about all things.
Years ago, I began dating a young woman I was crazy about. I desperately wanted to prove my worth to her as a lover, but it wasn’t helping my cause that I was hopelessly wet behind the ears where lovemaking was concerned. So I figured I’d give myself a leg up by reading a book about Tantric sex, an ancient form of erotic yoga based in Eastern spirituality.
Barry Long (1926-2003) was a spiritual master who showed men and women how to
live together in truth and love. His best-known work is Making Love: Sexual Love The Divine Way,
first written and recorded on cassette and later published as a book and on CD.
This article includes statements Barry Long made about the tantric aspect of his teachings.
They were previously published 2000-08 on a dedicated website: www.originaltantra.com
I’ve been speaking at public meetings and seminars for more than twenty years.
I speak of life, truth, love, death and God. I address every aspect of the human condition.
I am original. The truth is always original, always fresh and new.
I am a tantric master. I know and live the divine mystery of love between man
and woman. I speak of it. I go into detail about lovemaking, honesty in relationships,
what love is and how to bring it back when it’s been lost. I introduced this knowledge of
love to the western world. It is a new teaching for the individual, bringing new honesty
and clarity about love and sex – love and sex having become hopelessly polluted and
responsible for massive unhappiness on this planet.
What is a Tantric Master?
A tantric master is someone who continuously brings into the world original
knowledge of the mystery of divine love between man and woman. He has also
by grace been given the divine power to bring woman to a greater realisation of the
love of God, or the eternal, by physically making love to her; and eventually she transforms man.
However, the woman must be willing and ready to start dying to her old selfish notions
and expectations of love; and so must the man, in order to be transformed.
God in Existence
In my teaching there is God, or truth, out of existence; and God, or love, in existence.
Anyone who is truly God-realised has realised the extraordinary state of being which
is outside the existence of all form and appearance. This realisation is the most important
of all possible realisations for it is the realisation of the truth behind the universe and all
existence. I call this the transcendental realisation and in my own case it occurred over
three remarkable weeks in December 1968 in London.
Every aspect of my teaching is the endeavour to impart the rudiments of self-denial and
the love of honesty and truth which are essential preparations if this mighty realisation
is to occur. All the teaching of every master and teacher, and indeed all of life, is towards
this end, whether it is known or not known.
The motivation of anyone who has realised the transcendental is to help others do
the same; or, according to the teacher's inspiration, to work in some way to help
eliminate the ignorance and misery of those who can listen. In my own case I observed
that most misery and unhappiness on earth is caused by man and woman having forgotten
how to love one another.
The forgetfulness or avoidance of true love is the greatest tragedy that anyone can
observe in the lives of children, adults and in our decaying society. The love of man and
woman, in its reality, I realised, is God in existence. This seems to be an even rarer realisation than that of the transcendental truth out of existence . . .
The primary spiritual practice is self-denial, giving and honesty – practised over a l
ong period out of an inner perception of rightness and goodness. No one can make
love rightly without this essential and ceaseless practice, just as no one can realise
the Most High without the same one-pointed way of life. People may think they are
making divine love, but without this dire self-abnegation they are kidding themselves.
I wrote and recorded my Making Love Tapes in 1984 and they have been widely
circulated ever since. They have had a profound impact on people all around the world.
The tapes were copied and transcribed over and over with so little consciousness that the name of the author was frequently deleted. This meant that genuine people often were unable to get in touch with me and come to the source of the knowledge.
The tapes were also used, copied and distributed at the Osho Rajneesh ashram in
India, although I haven’t been able to work out why the people there needed my
tapes when they already had their own master. Some were moved by the tapes,
came to my teaching and stayed.
Because of the extraordinary response of people, many have wanted to promote
the teaching, not by using it in their own personal lives, but bypassing it on to others,
professionally. It frequently comes to my attention that people in many countries are
quoting from me, using my name as some sort of credential, copying and distributing
my tapes, quoting extracts without permission, setting themselves up as tantric teachers,
sex therapists and so on.
Most of these people have evidently not heard very much of my teaching at all, and
don’t realise the vast scope of it and how love and making love is only a part of the
divine life on earth. I have over 70 tapes available, more than a dozen books and
many videos, not just about sexual love, but describing the immense reality of everything that finally can lead to the realisation of God, the eternal, outside existence.
AlI I can do is alert the people to what a real tantric teacher says. I have written an
Open Letter to those who try to use my teaching to teach others. And I advise anyone
who is seeking original knowledge to read it . . .
An Open Letter
To those who try to use my teaching to teach others:
Tantra can only be taught by the tantric master. It is original God-given power and
knowledge. That knowledge has to be realised and made real in life, usually over
many years through devastating love of God and woman. The right or responsibility
to teach the knowledge is earned and implied in the realisation.
A tantric master is first of all God-realised and inspired by that enormous knowledge.
But all God-realised masters are not tantric masters. That's how rare genuine tantra is.
My tantric teachings are for the individual, for you personally. If you've been helped by
them in your own life they have fulfilled their purpose. You can go on using them to reach a deeper and more real place within your being. But if you use my tantric teachings in an attempt to teach others you misuse them and mislead the people.
When you teach something that you have not realised yourself and you build on
someone else's original knowledge, you only give the people a rehash of the truth
plus the information of your unenlightened experience. You might say this is better than nothing. But is it? Do you think the people are less intelligent or spiritual than you? Why not simply refer your students to the source that you yourself discovered? And then get on with your own teaching without using me as a crutch? When my teaching is quoted, embellished or interpreted by another it loses its spiritual power to transform enduringly.
Spiritually your students are seeking original knowledge. By basing your teaching on another authority you unwittingly confuse them. This makes you perversely indispensible; you are then needed to answer the students’ questions which arise from the confusion you have created in them!
It is a common practice for unoriginal teachers to combine my teaching with the
teachings of other teachers and so present another confusing mishmash to the people,
delaying their realisation even further. A frequent example is when followers of the master
Osho mix his teaching on love and sex with mine, when the two teachings are utterly different.
If Osho or any other teacher is your master, then you don’t need me. A master’s teaching
should be complete in itself, as mine is.
Then there is the frequent example of quoting my tantric words at such length that a
blatant breach of copyright occurs. Truth cannot be copyrighted. But truth is original.
If you have to quote someone else's originality then it is not your truth. And you can
be in breach of the world’s copyright laws, and face the consequences thereof, as an
ironic price for your unoriginality. No one is authorised to run groups or teach in my name.
No one speaks for me, not even in my organisation. I have no followers or disciples,
no therapists or evangelical priests to misrepresent my message to the people.
My teaching is always original, so it is always new, and I continue to impart the
mystery of my God-given tantric knowledge to any man or woman who can hear me.
Be Original: Go to the Source
Tantric Rules of Engagement
1. Gift of individual
Each person is made of the pure essence of spirit.
Each person is given the ability of perfection of
sacred mind, sacred body, sacred spirit. Each person is given perfection of the
physical worldin which to journey the earth plane. The only limit of potential is
those we place upon ourselves.
The subject is vast and covers many aspects.
This site alone will keep you busy for a while:
In the West we seem to use the term Tantra mainly related to sex.
I consider our attitudes towards sex (and Death) juvenile, and major blocks
to our feeling free. So any support in that area is - A Good Thing.
Won't go into details here as I have covered it many times.
The major thing is that sex is prohibited at a time when our sexual energy
is awakening - the time when we need to be experimenting.
Some studies show that that the first sexual awakening is an attraction
towards the same sex.
Then intense infatuations towards the opposite sex (except in some people)
- that feel as though they are going to last forever - and usually last a
week or so.
Then the healthy way is to keep experimenting until we are experienced,
and feel something extra strong with a partner enough to live and and spend
an extended time with them. Until/if it is time to move on.
Again, not going into details here, but in order to be more aware about this
very powerful basic life energy we do need to study and take into account
the basic procreation instincts and the accompanying chemicals,
We also need to be aware of our highly constricting conditioning.
Strictly - only sex with your partner, and only for procreation.
Don't think so? Up to 1969 Washington it was a felony to have sex with
anyone except your partner - and only in the missionary position!
When I last checked it was still illegal in some states to have oral sex -
even with your partner!
And as for anal sex - not long ago some men were in still prison for this
(On America Television - blurring out nipples - even when only vaguely
showing - through a blouse!)
Most people never go beyond the very early stages of sexual desire -
because 'They' do not want us to. It is one of the most effective ways to
keep control - and the resulting frustration makes good soldiers.
Most people die sexually unfulfilled.
Best remedy: Just Do It.
In the East:
"Sex has three distinct and separate purposes —
procreation, pleasure, and liberation."
"Tantrism is a quest for spiritual perfection and magical power.
Its purpose is to achieve complete control of oneself, and of all the forces
of nature, in order to attain union with the cosmos and with the divine."
Out of many Tantric practices I think there are only two main ones that are
based on sex. Left hand and right hand paths.
The left hand path is... interesting. It invokes the 'dark forces' and
culminates in having intercourse with the dead body of a virgin girl.
(Not a highly recommended path for a person living in the West eh -
would be hard to find a young virgin! - alive, yet alone dead.)
The right hand path includes sex, and is not focussed upon it. Briefly:
Having attained a certain level of consciousness one applies to a Tantric
Master. Once accepted you have follow their orders - strictly.
Years of meditation and breathing exercises until one becomes ready for the
next stage - the Master selects your partner.
With eyes closed, mantras and meditations prepare you for the next step -
considering your partner as God.
At first, sitting opposite each other - with eyes closed - until you feel
prepared enough to open your eyes - and look down at feet - of God.
Then, over time, into their eyes; touching; caressing; and eventually gentle
intercourse - with God!
This is the situation.
To raise your vibration/consciousness to the point of being equal to having
intimate physical connection - with God.
Both partners are having intimate physical contact - with God.
With the penis inside, no movement. Just energy.
Eventually, not only becoming one with your partner, God, but integrating to
the point where it is not integration, or even 'one with' - just... One.
Not wanting to travel to the East and attempting to find a Tantric Master?
No worries - try a 'Do It Yourself' method - in the comfort of your own bed.
Free basic instructions:
First find a suitable partner .
(Preferably the opposite sex - it is to do with the opposites/complimentary
types of energy required. And if you are not drawn to the opposite sex -
you could experiment. It could work if the attraction is physical and not
just mental. That is a whole other story.)
A suitable partner is someone to whom you feel a gentle and loving
attraction. Best not an energy where you get 'all worked up' and just want
to rush towards a orgasm.
With eyes open, softly and gently caress each other - equally,
until you feel it is time for the penis to enter the vagina.
Still with eyes open, with the woman on top of the man, gently let the penis
into the vagina.
Then, staying softly still, looking deeply into each other, just allow.
After a while let the eyes close, feel an expansion of your love and respect
for your partner.
Don't look for it, and, this is what may happen.
At first your partner has a name.
Then the name dissolves and there is just the being of the opposite gender.
Then the gender dissolves - and they are just a being.
Then this being, and yourself, starts to feel more like - just energy.
Then your energies start to dissolve into each other.
Two energies dissolved into each other - until there is just one energy.
Western Tantra is about going beyond sexual conditioning
and into sexual liberation.
Eastern Tantra - Liberation.
Wishing lots of gentle loving fun...
Many years ago I had a realisation for me about sex.
I realised that the sexual feelings I enjoyed most was enjoying the
enjoyment of the person I was with.
Is that clear?
The most enjoyment I have gotten from sex is enjoying the other person
enjoying. I enjoy people enjoying.
Same with love.
I love loving, and most of all, I love people feeling themselves loved.
When they accept me loving them it is a gift for me.
It is rare though. Most people do not feel worthy of being loved.
They do not deem themselves good enough to be loved, just as they are.
So if you love them they think you are not seeing them clearly, you are
infatuated, or a bit nuts - or all of the above.
I seem to love everybody (and everything) so it is there all the time now.
And the sensation increases in the moment with individuals.
When someone connects with the love I am feeling for them in that moment,
it is as though, at the level of the heart, a soft balloon gently opens and
a shower of loving tingly sensations flow through the whole of me.
Some people think the spice would go out of life if there was not conflict.
I have not found it that way. I have tried both - and I am feeling very
fulfilled with this way thank you.
That is one of the 'reasons' I am attempting to share.
And if it does not connect - no worries - I am sure it will,
in your unique way, one day.
Sending you soft tingly love...
>I am feeling some bliss too these days,
Great. Lots of people writing to say such things,
and reporting lovely 'unusual' experiences. Seems 'It' may be happening.
>but it often comes up through the second chakra so it activates the sexual
>center, but if I stay with it it moves up to the higher levels.
If it activates any centre it means that centre is not yet clear -
so may need the energy/attention.
"When you see the up as the down, and the down as the up..."
...attributed to Jesus.
I expect you know this already.
Up and down are just perspectives - fabricated by our minds - in order to
function on a material level.
(When the planet is 'upside down' what is up and what is down?
And in relation to what? Just the field of gravity - whatever that is -
even scientists don't know.)
There are so many 'facts' that our minds 'take for granted' - when in fact,
they are not facts at all - but just ideas put into us by people who have
just made assumptions - based on other 'ignorant' people's ignorant
assumptions. Tiddly Pom.
(And these 'facts' are usually disproved later -
although it is looking pretty certain that the planet is now round.
Hard to have an up and a down on a revolving sphere eh.)
Here is another consideration.
From the East we have 'adopted' that the Kundalini rises,
and we have assumed that, that is 'A Good Thing.'
(And where does that assumption stand - when there is no good and no bad?)
In this acceptance we assume that when energy reaches a certain place the
levels through which it has passed are then clear. This may not be so.
It may be that a certain amount of energy does move, but has not yet cleared
out all the centres - and may not, in any case, move consecutively.
It maybe that the sexual centre still needs some concentrated energy in
order to complete its transformation - or maybe it doesn't need/want
transforming - it may just want some fun!
We really do not know anything - yet we assume we even know what that means.
Don't interfere - in any way at all. With anything. Not even with ideas.
We just don't know - anything. So just be with what is. Not so easy eh.
Another suggestion: Have fun!
Sending you lots of love...
Consider this: the multiorgasmic male is not a myth. With some
amount of training, men can achieve what I refer to as ‘energy
orgasms,’ that can be reproduced many times over in the course
of one sexual encounter, rivaling the experience of a multiorgasmic
The mental shift required to access this experience involves
looking at the ejaculation-centered model of sex as a habit
rather than as the norm. There are no alternatives presented to
men at any stage of our development that challenge this habitual
behavior, and so for the majority of men this mode of operating
sexually persists throughout their entire lives. However, learning to
delay or forgo ejaculation in favor of energy orgasms introduces a
man to dimensions of his sexuality that go unexplored in this limited
To understand how energy orgasms are possible we have to talk about
what we mean by the term ‘sexual energy.’ Most men would say that
sexual energy is what they feel when they get a hard-on, or the thrill
that results when you lock eyes with a woman across the room, the
‘stirring in the loins’ that signals sexual arousal.
For the purposes of cultivating energy orgasms, sexual energy is best
described as an impulse or sensation that directly precedes erection, but
for most men does not register as a separate experience from sexual arousal.
This is because the sensation elicits an instantaneous command from
the male mind that something has to be done about this impulse.
It may be immediately filtered into a sexual fantasy, or, if the context
allows and an erection results, then ejaculation either in the context of
masturbation or sex must necessarily follow. A third and largely ignored
option is to train that initial impulse to follow a new and exciting pathway.
An energy orgasm feels like a pleasurable electric jolt or pulsating energy
stream of variable intensity that courses up the spine and disperses throughout
the entire body. It is the result of training the impulse that precedes erection
and ejaculation to reverse its direction and flow upward rather than outward.
Redirecting the flow of energy is essentially a two-fold strategy: simple
exercises involving breath control and muscular contraction; and mental
focus to guide the energy flow to specific areas. The exercises are invaluable
in that they create an awareness of sexual energy as an independent
phenomenon from erection and ejaculation, and reinvigorate dormant
energy channels that distribute the sensations of sexual arousal throughout
the entire body. An obvious comparison would be digging channels from
a static body of water to supply flow to a greater area. The result is an
extended full-body orgasm, rather than the typical genital-centered
experience of ejaculation.
Why would a man want to achieve this capability? Benefits include:
1) Increase libido without pharmaceuticals. The fallacy of libido and potency
dwindling with age is rampant in our culture. Increasing number of men are
turning to pharmaceuticals as the only solution to this perceived problem.
Learning the energy orgasm techniques restore a man’s natural capabilities
for sexual arousal and erection.
2) Resolve post-ejaculation depression and exhaustion. This is a common,
yet seldom-discussed phenomenon. Redistributing sexual energy throughout
the entire body limits the feeling of depletion commonly experienced after
3) Control ejaculation and prolong sexual excitement. Rather than having
ejaculation be an unpredictable product of urgency, there is a choice of whether to
ejaculate at all and if so, to do it when you want to. Delaying
ejaculation intensifies energy orgasms which in turn intensifies the eventual
4) Redirect and transform distracting sexual urges. It is not very empowering
to be led around by one’s penis, yet it is the condition of most men. Energy
orgasm techniques enable men to manage strong impulses while enjoying the
intensity of a sexually-charged environment
5) Deepen intimacy. Energy orgasms occur in waves that mirror a woman’s
sexual rhythm. This synchronicity in timing increases the likelihood of simultaneous
climaxing while enhancing intimacy.
6) Expand your range and capacity for sensual pleasure. When sexual energy
is redirected, it is redistributed throughout the body and stimulates dormant
7) Improve prostate health. Some of the exercises involve the
rhythmic contraction and relaxation of the pubococcygeus (PC) muscle,
which naturally massages the prostate and increases blood flow to the area.
James Rolwing, DC, offers Energy Orgasm workshops that instruct men in the
techniques described above.
Energy Orgasm Weekend Seminars
For men, the greatest barrier to satisfying sex and sexual intimacy is our focus on ejaculation as the only possibility of experiencing sexual pleasure. Most men wrongly assume that they are incapable of an extended orgasm that rivals that of a woman. This usually translates into a man’s experience of sex as a stress-filled management of his eventual ejaculation.
To compound matters, men are being sold the story of impaired male sexuality exemplified by television commercials showing men resolving erectile dysfunction with the wonder drug that is going to “cure” impotence. And, we are now being told that if men live long enough, they are destined to experience prostate problems, if not prostate cancer.
Men have access to a dormant but powerful source of energy that has habitually received only limited expression. Energy Orgasm is about discovering this missing element in men’s sexuality. Through simple and powerful techniques the potential for a new experience of male sexuality arises while old, limiting habits of sexual behavior and beliefs are dissolved. Through the redirection of sexual energy, participants may experience the opening of long-dormant channels, transforming the energy of ejaculation.
Energy Orgasm weekend seminars offer men the opportunity to learn these techniques and cultivate a broader experience of male sexuality.
Exploration of male sexuality to uncover hidden and unconscious beliefs and patterns that hinder and sabotage sexual fulfillment. This gives us a context in which to understand our current situation both individually and collectively. Participants should bear in mind that this is a rare opportunity to approach subjects that are seldom addressed in our culture, either publicly or in private. All discussions are kept in strict confidence, both by the facilitator and the participants. Participants are introduced to basic techniques of directing sexual energy.
Participants will give feedback on any impressions and observations from practicing basic techniques, with a Question & Answer session for clarifications. Presentation of advanced techniques involving more intense stimulation that eventually, with practice, culminate in male ‘energy orgasms’.
James Rolwing, DC, is a practitioner of chiropractic and energy work with over 10 years’ experience. His background includes over 20 years in sexual energy work, and training in kundalini yoga, taoist yoga, hatha yoga, reiki, magnetic therapy, and Toltec practices. He currently lives on the Big Island of Hawaii.
ENERGY ORGASM: ACHIEVING THE FULL POTENTIAL OF MALE SEXUALITY
October 9th and 10th, 9:00am -5:00 pm
Facilitator: James Rolwing, DC
A workshop for men to learn simple yet powerful techniques to:
- Control ejaculation and prolong sexual excitement
‑ Cultivate “energy orgasms” (not the same as ejaculation)
‑ Offset the effects of fatigue and depression that sometimes follow ejaculation.
‑ Redirect and transform distracting sexual impulses
‑ Enhance a woman’s pleasure and deepen intimacy
‑ Expand your range and capacity for sensual pleasure
‑ Improve prostate health
‑ Release emotional and mental patterns that inhibit and limit sexual enjoyment and expression
Southern part of Big Island of Hawaii (details are emailed separately to registered participants only)
$350 for the weekend seminar. $50 deposit is required at time of registration.
Phone ‑ 808‑990‑6491
Limited space available, early registration is recommended.
You must be at least 18 years of age to register.
totally drunk or drugged, would have unprotected sex with someone they are
not intimately connected with over some extended time. Russian Roulette.
Another aspect is pregnancy. Often women have told me that they had not had
an ejaculation inside them - yet they got pregnant. Seems they have not
heard of pre-come - the sperm that can escape before the man ejaculates, and
how long the sperm can stay alive inside the woman.
On one level we are always responsible for... whatever.
And everything can be a useful experience - especially if not repeated.
And the past is past. Life really does start now. This now. Now.
And, once stirred up, the energy may take a while to settle.
Someone writes to Paul:
>I have not loved and honoured my body.
Or the person you are with next with.
>and not to find out I have HIV!
It can happen with one time, but not so likely.
I used to give evening talks in New York to people who were HIV positive.
It was the early days and hundreds came. At that time you were given six
months to live. So many tears when people shared: "Just one time and...."
And as I say, not so likely as it is not easy to catch.
It is more the other infections.
I suppose you know - genital warts may not create discomfort - so you have
to keep checking to make sure if they are present.
You could be saying: "If only I hadn't shared..."
But holding back is a form of slow suicide. The discord we keep inside
unbalances the system in such a way that it can prevent self-healing.
In my experience it is often that each step of awareness gets 'tested' - to
see how deep the experience has gone.
>I'm finding it hard to have compassion for myself and the mistakes I have made.
This attitude is not healthy, or intelligent.
Anything that is not gratitude is poison.
Everything, everything is always for us. I suggest you disconnect from your
complaint and regrets and find your gratefulness.
moves into the second level: The life-giving Sexual Centre.
Of course this level is always activated, but when the awakening energy
moves into it the sexual energy is felt differently - and very strongly.
(Then, in pops guilt.)
The awakening energy is very different from what people normally feel.
When most people feel sexual it is the reproduction instinct that is
restricted and pressured by the suppressed/negated/denied/conditioned/fear-
oriented religious programming. Lust. Very sinful.
(If people feel free to have sex when they feel like it - in theory at
least, we will not get much done. And then, people will not be controllable.
So the basic instinct is denied - so people feel guilty - and have to come
for forgiveness - otherwise they can't go to heaven.
Heaven must be full of very boring people.)
When the awakening sexual energy starts to move it can feel (wonderfully)
overwhelming. It takes over the mind and body - which, if accepted, and not
resisted, in a delightful way.
The actual sexual act is then very different from what has previously been
experienced. It is softer. Instead of a contraction in order to have an
orgasm, it is a gentle expanded feeling that slips into a flowing - and
often ongoing delightful experience. There is a strong feeling of love - for
the partner, oneself, and the universe in general. The feeling can last for
days. Or forever - if you will let it.
Your whole view of life changes. You are in love. Not the usual kind of
self/only-one-other love, but an expanded feeling that includes - everything
and everybody. There is dance and song in everything you do. You glow.
Then the sexual energy drops into balance.
It is not longer an issue - one way or the other, and you will become aware
that that energy we call sex is included in absolutely everything.
Then the energy moves on up to the next level - the Hara / survival / anger.
More of that in the next instalment.
In the meantime, do enjoy the sexual level.
(It is very, very rare to meet an uninhibited person)
Without the guilt it is truly delightful - and, although it may not
completely disappear, it will diminish in importance to you.
So don't miss this delightful stage! (And don't get too addicted either)
Happy sexual exploration...
Western Tantra is not Eastern Tantra.
There are many schools/disciplines' of Tantra, and one of them includes
intimate sexual contact with a partner. Although sex is included, the
emphasis is not on the sex (no orgasms please) but intimate union with God.
Eastern Tantra is conducted by a Tantric Master.
The first stage is meditation. After a certain level is reached the Master
pairs off couples. Each person is to see their partner as God - therefore
even to look at the partner is too presumptive. After a while, looking, then
speaking, then touching, then sexual intercourse - with God.
For you? No need to take it so seriously.
Having fun as well is more balanced.--------------------------------------------